Day after era the Ukrainian port of Mariupol has stood Russias relentless raid and refused to surrender. But the city is all but destroyed. Countless have left. Quantity of basic goods are running out fast. Is this how Russia plans to strangle other metropolitans across Ukraine? My guest this week is Markiyan Lubkivsky, advisor to the countrys minister of defense. How long can this all go on? Until the last Ukrainian will be killed. And this is not only nice utterances. So, the morale and the spirit of Ukrainians is very high As the fighting intensifies, we look at the constrict move to a peace accord and the future prospects that Ukraine faces years of stalemate. What motivates parties permitting such frightening maladies? And while they give their life and their future for home countries do they feel that their friends who promise so much please give fairly? All that and so much better on Conflict Zone.Markiyan Lubkivsky, welcome to Conflict Zone. Thank you for having me with you. As Russia steps up its strikes, engaging messages from your chairman. Ukraine, he said, will never bow to Russian ultimatums. And he made clear there’d be no compromises on territory unity or sovereignty. But he wants to talk to Mr. Putin. Is there anything to suggest that Russia wants to talk constructively to him? Thank you, Tim. Look, this initiative was raised a couple of days by President Zelenskyy, and yes, he is ready to speak to President Putin to discuss all issues, including armed, humanitarian, political.But we still did not get any reply from the Russian side if Russian side is ready to discuss that. Let me remind you one very interesting thing for me as a diplomat. You remember recently were the ongoing negotiations between Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Kuleba, and his copy, Minister Lavrov. And after those negotiations, there was a statement made by Lavrov. He said that Russia will never affect any European or other European country. And after that, he contributed: and Russia never affected Ukraine. So even if you got a deal, you wouldn’t trust it. Is that what you’re saying? We need to have very strong guarantees afforded not only by Russia, but likewise by such countries as the United Nation, United kingdom government, G7, European countries, EU and probably other neighbors. You had those guarantees, or some of those guarantees, with the Budapest Memorandum going back to 1994. Guaranteeing your security in return for you giving up your atomic weapon. That didn’t work so well, then, did it? What clears you think it would work better now? We need to establish a brand-new plan of security. You are absolutely right saying that Budapest Memorandum never worked.And now we need to include all parties and find such guarantees which should be really workable for everyone , not only for Ukraine, because under these circumstances , nobody can be safe. Look, today Putin attacked Ukraine. Why tomorrow he wouldn’t assault Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia? Nobody can be sure right now. A week ago, your president’s surpass intermediary, Mykhailo Podoliak, proceeded so far as to say the Russian position had softened enormously. “We have much confidence”, he said, “that we’ll have a ceasefire in the coming days”. What happened to that confidence? I think that there are two reasons. I cannot disclose the matter of negotiations. I am not part of the negotiating team, but there are two main reasons why position or approach of Russian Federation became much more softer. First of all, the losses of Russia in Ukraine are incredible. The Russians lost already 15,000 of their soldiers here.And the second thing, that sanctions are cultivating. So these two reasons are the base or the matter why Russians are ready to speak in a much more softer behavior. But there is some suggestion in the West that Russia identifies arbitrations not as a nature to result conflict, but as one of the purposes of that conflict, as one diplomat said, just a channel of phoning up and phoning down the cadence to suit Russia’s needs. What do you think? We don’t want to face a frozen conflict. You’re absolutely right. I agreed to accept you. And this is the strategy or the tactics of Russia. Russia made a couple of frozen conflicts on the territory of Soviet Union.Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova. So, and probably if they will not succeed in the coming daytimes, and they will not, they will try to freeze the conflict. You say you don’t want a frozen conflict, but how long can you go on like this with critical shortages of food, spray, and medication in the main areas under attempt? Tens of thousands of beings homeless, people sleeping in vaults. People dying on the streets.How long can this last-place? Until the last Ukrainian will be killed. And this is not only nice words. So, the morale and the spirit of Ukrainians is very high, and the feeling, its own experience, and effectiveness of Ukrainian army is as well. So we will fight till the end. The situation is really very dramatic if you are speaking about such metropolis as Mariupol, as Chernihiv and in Kharkiv. I got an impression that Putin is going to demolish the Ukraine totally and kill all Ukrainians, so that it looks like this is his strategy and this is his main goal. But we will fight till the end. In the US, President Biden has been telling Russia could use chemical and biological weapons. How seriously do you make that threat? Very dangerously. First there were accusations considering Ukraine, that Ukraine will use this chemical weapons. That we are working on fowls taking the biological weapons to Russia, or munition. This is crazy.So, we should be ready. Everybody should be ready. And don’t forget that Russia is one of the nuclear powers, so they can use likewise nuclear weapons. And this is terrible. So, you remember that a couple of days ago, the Zaporizhzhia nuclear terminal was attacked with Russian missiles. So that’s why we are ready for any kind of scenarios. In the last 72 hours, your forces declared they lost access to the Sea of Azov, that piece of coastline that connects Crimea to the breakaway regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.How serious is that loss for you? The statu in Mariupol is very serious. So that’s why we are trying to take care and to extricate all of the person or persons. So, the spirit of beings representing, I convey, soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers attacking Mariupol is very high. So again, they will fight till the end. So, the main thing for us is to create- to establish so-called humanitarian hallways and to make people out from the areas which are under attack. Unfortunately, Russians are shooting on other beings. So they are trying to kill everybody who is leaving Mariupol, Chernihiv, and some other municipals. This is terrible. Reports from Mariupol have spoken about how it’s almost completely destroyed. Is it close to the end? Is it close to the point where it simply cannot take anymore? 90% of the infrastructure of Mariupol is dismantled. So, this is our new Aleppo. So, I don’t want to do any predicting. It’s very hard for me. But we will fight. You know, it’s tremendously hard to accept that. But we are trying to do our best. And our soldiers are real heroes there.Mr. Lubkivsky, if proper talks began, constructive the negotiations with the Russians began, how far is your government united on what it will or won’t negotiate to get a deal? It’s very important. Our government is united. You know that. And together with the parliament, the president is staying in Kiev, as you know, he will not escape. And I think it’s important to speak to Ukrainian people. And the president will do that. So, in case he will face with the issues, he cannot solve himself. So, I think that our society is united maybe for the first time in our new history.So, it’s important to keep it united. And the main things so far it is ceasefire and to establish mentioned humanitarian passageways. Your president spelled out, as we said, his red lines about territorial coherence and sovereignty. So you would never accept the annexation of Crimea. Is that too a red thread? Yes, sure. Annexation of Crimea was illegal, was concluded in the in the military way. So that cannot be accepted. The same to areas or the temporary occupied territories of Donetsk and Luhansk regions.But it’s important to sit and to speak. We are ready for such kind of negotiations. For your knowledge, talks are ongoing. Our statesmen are speaking to the Russians right now. If those red positions are standing, what’s left? Some kind of negotiated neutrality for Ukraine? You know that the other aspiration is to become part of a civilized world, part of NATO and The european institutions. I think it is very important to be focused on the way to become a member of The european institutions. And that perspective is very clear. So, I think that we have to go in that way and discuss the status of Ukraine with the guarantees by countries like the United Commonwealth, United Kingdom. So, I think this is the way we can move ahead. But you have now accepted that you will not join NATO. President Zelenskyy has announced Ukraine’s failure to gain membership a truth that must be recognized. Does the country accept that now? Do you accept that? The point that Ukraine is going to become a member of NATO was put into Ukrainian main law, into constitution. So, in case the decision will be on the table and now it’s not on the table, we have to change the Constitution from one side.The main thing I strongly believe is that President Zelensky in any case will speak for his people. You’re talking about a referendum, then? Because he’s actually was talking about a referendum. Correct. Absolutely. So the statement was concluded yesterday and today morning, that we probably will be implemented by referendums as a mechanism to establish the real situation and to speak to Ukrainians. Mr. Lubkivsky, it seems as though there’s a very narrow path to an arrangement and a very high price for collapse. The odds of you noticing that road aren’t very encouraging, are they? Yeah. But this is our way, this is our destiny. I’m absolutely self-confident that we need to win or to you know, or- So this is for us something we- This is historical moment for Ukraine. We have a lot to do in terms of internal live to change a lot of things.But we want to become part of Europe. I think that it’s clear to everybody that Ukraine now is attacking European values. And this is very important for our partners to understand and to let Ukraine join European Euro-Atlantic community. Well, you talk about your relations with the Euro-Atlantic community. You didn’t get the no-fly zone that you wanted, but you have had significant amounts of dangerous military aid from the West. Do you still feel- Do you still feel in any way that the West has let you down? No. We are very grateful to all our partners, to all my best friend. We should like to thank our neighbour, Poland, our tactical marriage. And hitherto we never got the no-fly zone. But we are in very good cooperation with all our partners to provide Ukraine with weapons. We need at this stage- we still need aircrafts and anti-air systems.So that was the site discussed by my minister of defense, Mr. Oleksiy Reznikov, yesterday with his British colleague and the Polish minister of Defense. But more artilleries are on their way. Kamikaze monotones, hundreds of Stinger rockets, also different hardware from Italy, Denmark, Germany and other EU magnetisms. You are happy with the response you got? Yes, we are. Your chairperson though seemed peculiarly vexed by what “hes seen” as an inadequate response from Israel. Is that true-life? He use some pretty strong paroles about them. Yeah, it was it was a statement to the Knesset. And in such statements, President Zelenskyy is quite clear. But from the other side- you know, our relations with Israel are very close. Thousands of Ukrainians live there. And Ukraine is the homeland for a good deal of Israeli beings. And that’s why such statements, his address, was very emotional: because Ukrainian chairperson is Jewish. So that’s why we really expect from Israel, as well as from other countries like India, to construct very short statements, particularly, very strong and very clear announcements related to Russian aggression.But from the other side, we cannot accuse any country, you know, that they are providing us with the weapons or with the backing or not. No. We are grateful for everybody. But everybody should find a way how to help Ukraine. You’re surrounded by death, termination, sorrow in your country. What’s been the worst moment for you personally in the last month? It was a death of a very close friend of mine. I cannot disclose his name. He is a real fighter. But that was the misfortune for, first of all, for his family and for me personally, because I knew that person. How hard is it to carry on after something like that? I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s impossible. You know, every fatality for me, it’s like shooting into my nature. It’s not easy to, you know, to overcome all these things. I’m quite a strong person, and I got a lot of experience based on my Balkan career.I mean, I spent in total almost ten years working in the former Yugoslavia and in Croatia. I used to be ambassador to that country, to Croatia. So it’s not easy, but something like that happened to me previously. It was in 1999, then I depleted 78 epoches in Belgrade during the NATO campaign against the regime of Slobodan Milosevic. But that was not my country. But I know what is war and now combat came back to me again. You talked earlier about the brand-new encounter harmony in Ukraine. Is it the collective crusade campaign that causes beings now? Yeah. You know that- You know, what was the idea of Putin. He came to Ukraine with the idea to kill- to spawn free Ukraine from tyrants. But he’s the real despot. Together with his army and with his leader. I met a lot of parties coming from Kharkiv, from Sumy, from Chernihiv. They were trying to leave their neighbourhoods and to move to the western part of Ukraine.And they were asking me merely a few questions: we are half Russians. We speak Russian, “we ii” tyrants? A quantity of Jews approached me with the same question. So, Putin accused that parties that they are dictators, they’re not despots. They Ukrainians, they desire home countries. And they will stay till the end. So this is the main mistake, I anticipate, made by Russian intelligence. I think that Putin’s dream was to reach Kiev and to have a parade now, like in three or four days.And that never happened. Another mistake may have been to underestimate the morale of the Ukrainian beings. The surveys have been mapping, the opinion polls have been charting that humor. Have you been surprised at how upbeat some of them ought to have? The rating agency did a telephone poll of 1200 people across Ukraine last week. 91% suggest that they felt hope when thinking about the situation in the country. Is that really plausible, do you think? You realise, the moral and the spirit of Ukrainians is very high.People are very well caused. You know, from one surface, they are trying to go escape and they are looking for the safe situates. But from the other side, I mull the support of- the notion in our succes is very high. I am very proud to be Ukrainian. I am very proud to be a part of these parties. Your president has spoken of a strategy for what he announced national resilience, designed to deal, I see, with different scenarios like a full-on invasion. How detailed is that strategy and has it helped to give people confidence, do you think? I think it’s too far are talking about programme. President is sending to everybody very clear and very strong messages.Stay brave. Ukrainian legion will defend you. And I think that now the main scenario or the main thing is to protect Kiev and other metropolis. So, as you know, Russians did not attained taking into surrender Ukrainian metropolis. Maybe the exclusion is Mariupol, but the rest of the cities are fighting. And the morale and the spirit of people and army is very high. Your chairwoman also had an singular motto. He said, we are on the brink of living this war.I think he said that a few hours ago, on the brink of existing this war. Does that mean that you’ll be able to force a standstill? And is that, at the moment, the best you can hope for? I was just thinking. I’m absolutely I agree with my chairwoman and that I think that he was very clear in his texts. Do you have any confidence that China could play any liaising persona with Russia? Because that’s something else that beings suggests that. Or is China only interested in itself and the chance to join a new anti-Western alliance? What do you think as a diplomat? Oh, I think so. I think that China should not interfere into this war on the Russian side. So, the role of China should and could be massive. You be reminded that President Biden direct a very strong message together with his advisor, Sullivan. Very strong senses to China. But, yes, I think- So now, as we can see, China is apart from this war. But I think that the role of China might be significant. As this conflict goes on, do you too have your idea, your thoughts and your absorption on international justice? Is this something you’re thinking of? Are you documenting the potential war crimes that are taking place? Are you working with the International Criminal Court, the “prosecutors “, who has also expressed interest in putting together evidence and structure a winnable suit on war crimes, if that’s possible, in the future? How important is that idea of international justice to you? We own a good deal of actualities, a lot of documents, a good deal of evidence that can prove that Russia and the president, they are the criminals.So, yes, we are going to the International Criminal Court. We fix once a good cooperation with them. So investigation is ongoing and we will provide, we already accommodated, and we are going to provide a lot of indication to that institution. One more one interesting thing is that how we can negotiate, how we can make an agreement with the world, with an international criminal. It’s also a question we need to find the answer to. Do you think you’ll ever get your old-fashioned being back again, Mr. Lubkivsky? Or is it inescapable that you’ll have to build a new kind of animation full of indecision and insecurity? Yes, I believe in that.You know, in 2012, I used to be the tournament conductor for the most successful tournament in the history of UEFA: Euro 2012. I was passing the power representing UEFA in Ukraine and we did we did a tremendous job. That was the biggest and the most successful project in “peoples lives” I guess. I want to come back to my customary lifetime. To encounter my wife, my minors. This is normal. I think this is the will of all Ukrainians who left their homes. Markiyan Lubkivsky, it’s been good to have you on Conflict Zone. Thank you very much for paying us your time. Thank you Tim.Thank you so much. Thank you for having me with you . .
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